You're right and he's wrong (obviously) but they do sleep together in the source text (Promos and Cassandra) so maybe he's picking up on traces of an underlying narrative pattern...
I used to think the peak of a career would be appearing on Desert Island Discs. Increasingly, I think it’s appearing on Conversations with Tyler. Great episode, Henry!
I am surprised to find your reading of Merchant so different than mine. Portia clearly and repeatedly gives Shylock an out! She keeps telling him: "Mercy is better than the law. I am giving you the opportunity to choose mercy and I really think you should choose mercy." And Shylock says very explicitly "No, I reject mercy, I want the law". So Portia gives him the law good and hard; but after all that's what he asked for!
Really it struck me as the most overtly Christian of all the Shakespeare plays I've read. Heck, from a Christian perspective Portia is doing Shylock a solid.
1. She has to save the her friends without, like, completely undermining the functioning of the legal system.
2. Arguably she does? She delivers him a strong error signal with a clear casual relationship to his own actions, and leaves him alive to update his world model accordingly.
When I read a Shakespearean comedy, the vibe I often get is the that "a benevolent experimentalist is strategically intervening in a network of learning agents to maximize moral improvement".
it cannot be the case that the ruination of Shylock *caused by Portia's use of his own legal technicality against him* AND her refusal to allow him to take the money AND her invocation of the "alien" law is consistent with these words
Sorry to harp, but just noticing: "We do pray for mercy,/ And that same prayer doth teach us all to render/ The deeds of mercy." Shylock does not learn from the rhetoric, so Portia arranges some experiential learning for him.
Law is central to the Judaic tradition. Mercy is essential to the Christian religion -- or at least the religion that is guided by the New Testament. I doubt the practice of mercy--rather than precept--would have been met with gratitude by a believer of the first. Better to bring down the full force of the law on the believer of the supremacy of the law. She was setting an example on his terms. A deeper consistency at work, I think.
Because if you're trying to mercy-max, it's more efficient to teach others to be merciful than it is to do all the mercy yourself!
From our view it is of course repellent to force conversion and invoke the alien law against Shylock, but internally to the play I feel like the logic holds together.
Immediately after invoking the alien law, Portia says: “Down, therefore, and beg mercy of the Duke.” Later, when Shylock protests the hardness of the Duke’s judgement, she prompts Antonio: “What mercy can you render him, Antonio?”
So the whole point is to force Shylock into a position where he must beg for mercy right? And then they give it to him. You could view this as vindictive, but you could just as well call it didactic. Shylock has demonstrated that he does not value mercy one iota, so he must be forced into a situation where he will experience the value of mercy for himself. (It also has the advantage of neutralizing him as a threat, of course.)
As for ruination, Shylock loses most (or not even? half?) of his money and has to convert to Christianity… which sounds bad to us, but from a contemporary Christian perspective isn't this all doing him a huge favor? If there's any hope for his soul, he has to learn to value money less and virtue more—and, of course, be Christian.
Sorry, but you are wrong about Galsworthy. Underrated. A worthy successor to Trollope. People think of the sequence as soap with posh people because of the TV adaptations, but it’s darker and subtler than they know. And yes, I’ve read the whole sequence _and the short stories_.
A showy erudition is a terrible to sight to behold. (I suppose it was just a matter of time before Henry Oliver showed up on Conversations with Tyler, given their connection to George Mason University.) But I pity Oliver for being subjected to Cowen's restless, anxious, hyperactive interrogation, all designed to display the host's discursive style but only showing us his rather shallow learning.
You're right and he's wrong (obviously) but they do sleep together in the source text (Promos and Cassandra) so maybe he's picking up on traces of an underlying narrative pattern...
Maybe…..
I used to think the peak of a career would be appearing on Desert Island Discs. Increasingly, I think it’s appearing on Conversations with Tyler. Great episode, Henry!
Great interview. One of the funnest Tyler interviews I’ve heard. Nice job
Thanks it was fun for me to do!
I am surprised to find your reading of Merchant so different than mine. Portia clearly and repeatedly gives Shylock an out! She keeps telling him: "Mercy is better than the law. I am giving you the opportunity to choose mercy and I really think you should choose mercy." And Shylock says very explicitly "No, I reject mercy, I want the law". So Portia gives him the law good and hard; but after all that's what he asked for!
Really it struck me as the most overtly Christian of all the Shakespeare plays I've read. Heck, from a Christian perspective Portia is doing Shylock a solid.
if she think he ought to choose mercy, why cannot she show mercy?
Some critics say she does because Shylock's punishment is supposed to be death.
That is up to the Duke, her involvement is before that
1. She has to save the her friends without, like, completely undermining the functioning of the legal system.
2. Arguably she does? She delivers him a strong error signal with a clear casual relationship to his own actions, and leaves him alive to update his world model accordingly.
When I read a Shakespearean comedy, the vibe I often get is the that "a benevolent experimentalist is strategically intervening in a network of learning agents to maximize moral improvement".
But mercy is above this sceptered sway.
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute to God Himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this:
That in the course of justice none of us
Should see salvation. We do pray for mercy,
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.
it cannot be the case that the ruination of Shylock *caused by Portia's use of his own legal technicality against him* AND her refusal to allow him to take the money AND her invocation of the "alien" law is consistent with these words
Sorry to harp, but just noticing: "We do pray for mercy,/ And that same prayer doth teach us all to render/ The deeds of mercy." Shylock does not learn from the rhetoric, so Portia arranges some experiential learning for him.
Why must she teach him rather than show the mercy she just advocated for?
Law is central to the Judaic tradition. Mercy is essential to the Christian religion -- or at least the religion that is guided by the New Testament. I doubt the practice of mercy--rather than precept--would have been met with gratitude by a believer of the first. Better to bring down the full force of the law on the believer of the supremacy of the law. She was setting an example on his terms. A deeper consistency at work, I think.
Because if you're trying to mercy-max, it's more efficient to teach others to be merciful than it is to do all the mercy yourself!
From our view it is of course repellent to force conversion and invoke the alien law against Shylock, but internally to the play I feel like the logic holds together.
Immediately after invoking the alien law, Portia says: “Down, therefore, and beg mercy of the Duke.” Later, when Shylock protests the hardness of the Duke’s judgement, she prompts Antonio: “What mercy can you render him, Antonio?”
So the whole point is to force Shylock into a position where he must beg for mercy right? And then they give it to him. You could view this as vindictive, but you could just as well call it didactic. Shylock has demonstrated that he does not value mercy one iota, so he must be forced into a situation where he will experience the value of mercy for himself. (It also has the advantage of neutralizing him as a threat, of course.)
As for ruination, Shylock loses most (or not even? half?) of his money and has to convert to Christianity… which sounds bad to us, but from a contemporary Christian perspective isn't this all doing him a huge favor? If there's any hope for his soul, he has to learn to value money less and virtue more—and, of course, be Christian.
hilarious discussion of Forsyte
Forsyte has been made into TV at least 3 different times
Sorry, but you are wrong about Galsworthy. Underrated. A worthy successor to Trollope. People think of the sequence as soap with posh people because of the TV adaptations, but it’s darker and subtler than they know. And yes, I’ve read the whole sequence _and the short stories_.
A showy erudition is a terrible to sight to behold. (I suppose it was just a matter of time before Henry Oliver showed up on Conversations with Tyler, given their connection to George Mason University.) But I pity Oliver for being subjected to Cowen's restless, anxious, hyperactive interrogation, all designed to display the host's discursive style but only showing us his rather shallow learning.