We faced a similar issue at the NEA twenty years ago when we launched our national Shakespeare program. Many states were dropping Shakespeare from the high school curriculum--citing how difficult and irrelevant the plays were.
We proceeded any way. We eventually brought several million teenagers into live performances, often the first professional "spoken" play they had ever seen. Kids from every sort of background loved the experience. Teachers wrote to us that the best classes of their careers were in the days following the performance.
In the meantime we gave thousands of actors and crew well-paid work, and we helped support regional theaters in their work.
Now this I can get behind. Saw Henry V recently. Awesome play about politics and war. And because it is awesome, it is relevant. Seeing Romeo & Juliet in a couple of months.
Are there any decent adaptions of Faust out there?
Coming from a science background, I feel literary folks get too hung up on relevance. 'Relevance' is just bureaucrat-speak for excitement. You just need a bit of razzle-dazzle, a dash of rizz!
(I say this as a profoundly rizzless person myself.)
By "relevance to their lives" they mean literature that will mirror how they live and what they believe in, in a sycophantic manner, and never challenge their lifestyle, never attack their contemporary conventional wisdom, and never show them any deeper truths.
The plea for „relevance“ is merely a smokescreen. Classics have an inherent relevance because reading them teaches us to perceive, think, and express ourselves precisely. Relevance doesn't come from a current topic, but indirectly, on a meta-level. Anything that empowers individuals to think independently, even when circumstances change, is relevant.
I’ll cross-reference the post of an education blogger, Curmudgucator: “Dear teacher, please don’t make your lesson relevant.” I set it to reappear in my inbox every August as I switch back into teaching mode.
the title seems misleading, nowhere it say to stop reading goethe. even in the article the student continued with the following:
"the same time, he's convinced that many more students would actually like to read works by Goethe if they were given more interesting approaches to the material — but that would require wide-reaching reform of Germany's patchwork education system."
Love the intensity of the painting. I feel that though I did not understand all that I read in high school, seeds were planted that later germinated. Part of my pleasure in reading is to cast my mind back to what I thought and felt about works at different points in my life. … and the joy of sinking deeper into a piece for the second and third times!
Maybe a contrarian view, but that Pride and Prejudice lady has to start reading something else. How many other good books has she missed out on because she was reading Pride and Prejudice for the 67th time? Has she at least read Emma and Persuasion? Four times in a lifetime should be the max. I think I've read Our Mutual Friend that many times.
I had to read Goethe back and forth in school, and of course at the time I kept wondering why I had to do it. But looking back, all that analyzing and interpreting has helped me immensely later in life. It wasn’t just about understanding language and content — I also learned focus, depth, and how to follow a thought or argument through to the end instead of dropping it after three seconds and moving on to something else.
So yes, keep these books alive — and add new ones, too. Kids have plenty of time, and it won’t hurt them to get familiar with culture. And those “alte Schinken” are often much more relevant than we think. I’m currently reading Hermann Hesse’s Steppenwolf, written in 1927, and I often find myself thinking: wow, this is still so relevant today. Highly recommend it, by the way!
In my sophomore year in high school, in our honors english class — somewhere along our way from Tale of Two Cities (paired with Burke) through Taha Hussain and Pirandello and Ecclesiastes to The Plague — one of the students *demanded* to know why we couldn’t be reading something relevant (she actually used the word) like ________ (then-current bestseller, probably as forgotten by the people who read it as the title now is to me). The response: “Go ahead. You don’t need my help for *that*.”
I fear if I were teaching and someone told me the course should be “more relevant to [their] life” I’d be inclined to respond, “But your life … it’s so very small. I’m trying to make it bigger.”
But then I’d have the same relation to Academe that I have now.
Perhaps some of the blame lies with teachers, school administrators, and politicians who have failed to make the relevance of Goethe plain to the students. As another of your commenters has remarked below, the speaker apparently continued by noting that many more students would to read works by Goethe if they were given more interesting approaches to the material — but that would require wide-reaching reform of Germany's patchwork education system.
German. 1. "general secretary of the Federal Student Conference" is a post of extreme irrelevance (as are all lower ranks of all German 'student conferences' - same for those 'parent conferences'). Usu. run by lefties/wokies, zero powers, a training ground for some wannabe-politicians. Ignored by people and most media.
2. Not that I disagree, but a) In German, 'Philister' was last used by Hermann Hesse; became 'Spießer' - nowadays, the concept is forgotten. b) In 1985 my class was forced to read a play by Heinrich von Kleist (The broken jug). Last week, I helped a girl in the library to find the text (and those booklets that will help her ace the exam about it). Much happened, nothing changed at school. That fine play was outdated since at least 1960 (a corrupt judge in an aristocratic society - written ca. 1808. Fun fact: Goethe directed the first performance: epic, oops, dramatic fail.).
German literature did not stop with Bert Brecht, just saying. Nor with Peter Weiss. So, by your logic, a teacher who discussed that play in 1830 - when the text was highly relevant and had become popular, too -or even that bestselling, scandalous 'Werther': "maybe a Philistine, but at least s.o. blind to the 'deep beauty' of Walther von der Vogelweide"
But sure: Read Goethe. Read Kleist. And Jane Austen. But preferably: with AI. - Goethe clearly saw Shakespeare as the much superior playwright. Goethe's best poems are still striking, much less so in translation (and Faust I is a poem - well, written in rhymes -, though not his best - the first pages are still fun. Faust II is not done at school.).
We faced a similar issue at the NEA twenty years ago when we launched our national Shakespeare program. Many states were dropping Shakespeare from the high school curriculum--citing how difficult and irrelevant the plays were.
We proceeded any way. We eventually brought several million teenagers into live performances, often the first professional "spoken" play they had ever seen. Kids from every sort of background loved the experience. Teachers wrote to us that the best classes of their careers were in the days following the performance.
In the meantime we gave thousands of actors and crew well-paid work, and we helped support regional theaters in their work.
I love this!
Now this I can get behind. Saw Henry V recently. Awesome play about politics and war. And because it is awesome, it is relevant. Seeing Romeo & Juliet in a couple of months.
Are there any decent adaptions of Faust out there?
Of course! The way to teach Shakespeare is to put them on their feet and say the lines. They taste so good!
God I hate relevance.
down with it!!
Coming from a science background, I feel literary folks get too hung up on relevance. 'Relevance' is just bureaucrat-speak for excitement. You just need a bit of razzle-dazzle, a dash of rizz!
(I say this as a profoundly rizzless person myself.)
Yup
💪
But also, I feel like Faust of all things is extremely relevant to AI skills...? Probably more relevant than most ICML papers will be in a few years.
That sounds interesting, I’m still thinking about it….
EXACTY OMG
It’s just a euphemism for narcissism
What a fascinating thought….
By "relevance to their lives" they mean literature that will mirror how they live and what they believe in, in a sycophantic manner, and never challenge their lifestyle, never attack their contemporary conventional wisdom, and never show them any deeper truths.
Exactly. Relatable being its even worse little sibling.
The plea for „relevance“ is merely a smokescreen. Classics have an inherent relevance because reading them teaches us to perceive, think, and express ourselves precisely. Relevance doesn't come from a current topic, but indirectly, on a meta-level. Anything that empowers individuals to think independently, even when circumstances change, is relevant.
Yes. Beautifully put, if I may say so.
Thank you!
I’ll cross-reference the post of an education blogger, Curmudgucator: “Dear teacher, please don’t make your lesson relevant.” I set it to reappear in my inbox every August as I switch back into teaching mode.
Marvellous!
I saw the Marginal Revolution link and thought, that's Henry bait for sure!
lol indeed
the title seems misleading, nowhere it say to stop reading goethe. even in the article the student continued with the following:
"the same time, he's convinced that many more students would actually like to read works by Goethe if they were given more interesting approaches to the material — but that would require wide-reaching reform of Germany's patchwork education system."
These “[X] is being cancelled” stories are almost invariably more nuanced than the headline.
Love the intensity of the painting. I feel that though I did not understand all that I read in high school, seeds were planted that later germinated. Part of my pleasure in reading is to cast my mind back to what I thought and felt about works at different points in my life. … and the joy of sinking deeper into a piece for the second and third times!
Maybe a contrarian view, but that Pride and Prejudice lady has to start reading something else. How many other good books has she missed out on because she was reading Pride and Prejudice for the 67th time? Has she at least read Emma and Persuasion? Four times in a lifetime should be the max. I think I've read Our Mutual Friend that many times.
I had to read Goethe back and forth in school, and of course at the time I kept wondering why I had to do it. But looking back, all that analyzing and interpreting has helped me immensely later in life. It wasn’t just about understanding language and content — I also learned focus, depth, and how to follow a thought or argument through to the end instead of dropping it after three seconds and moving on to something else.
So yes, keep these books alive — and add new ones, too. Kids have plenty of time, and it won’t hurt them to get familiar with culture. And those “alte Schinken” are often much more relevant than we think. I’m currently reading Hermann Hesse’s Steppenwolf, written in 1927, and I often find myself thinking: wow, this is still so relevant today. Highly recommend it, by the way!
In my sophomore year in high school, in our honors english class — somewhere along our way from Tale of Two Cities (paired with Burke) through Taha Hussain and Pirandello and Ecclesiastes to The Plague — one of the students *demanded* to know why we couldn’t be reading something relevant (she actually used the word) like ________ (then-current bestseller, probably as forgotten by the people who read it as the title now is to me). The response: “Go ahead. You don’t need my help for *that*.”
I fear if I were teaching and someone told me the course should be “more relevant to [their] life” I’d be inclined to respond, “But your life … it’s so very small. I’m trying to make it bigger.”
But then I’d have the same relation to Academe that I have now.
You Goethe be kidding me.
Classics and the Public Sphere:
https://ricochet.com/1260883/classics-and-the-public-sphere/
If Republican politicos had taken Goethe's 'Faust' to heart, this nation would be on a much more even keel.
Perhaps some of the blame lies with teachers, school administrators, and politicians who have failed to make the relevance of Goethe plain to the students. As another of your commenters has remarked below, the speaker apparently continued by noting that many more students would to read works by Goethe if they were given more interesting approaches to the material — but that would require wide-reaching reform of Germany's patchwork education system.
Always here for your common booksense.
German. 1. "general secretary of the Federal Student Conference" is a post of extreme irrelevance (as are all lower ranks of all German 'student conferences' - same for those 'parent conferences'). Usu. run by lefties/wokies, zero powers, a training ground for some wannabe-politicians. Ignored by people and most media.
2. Not that I disagree, but a) In German, 'Philister' was last used by Hermann Hesse; became 'Spießer' - nowadays, the concept is forgotten. b) In 1985 my class was forced to read a play by Heinrich von Kleist (The broken jug). Last week, I helped a girl in the library to find the text (and those booklets that will help her ace the exam about it). Much happened, nothing changed at school. That fine play was outdated since at least 1960 (a corrupt judge in an aristocratic society - written ca. 1808. Fun fact: Goethe directed the first performance: epic, oops, dramatic fail.).
German literature did not stop with Bert Brecht, just saying. Nor with Peter Weiss. So, by your logic, a teacher who discussed that play in 1830 - when the text was highly relevant and had become popular, too -or even that bestselling, scandalous 'Werther': "maybe a Philistine, but at least s.o. blind to the 'deep beauty' of Walther von der Vogelweide"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_von_der_Vogelweide
But sure: Read Goethe. Read Kleist. And Jane Austen. But preferably: with AI. - Goethe clearly saw Shakespeare as the much superior playwright. Goethe's best poems are still striking, much less so in translation (and Faust I is a poem - well, written in rhymes -, though not his best - the first pages are still fun. Faust II is not done at school.).