We are meeting tomorrow, SUNDAY 19.00 UK time, to discuss John Stuart Mill’s Autobiography. Start the discussion by adding any questions, comments, or discussion topics here—or compare notes on what you thought about the book.
I’ll talk a little about Mill’s private life and what he didn’t put in the book…
See you tomorrow, SUNDAY 19.00 UK time.
Meeting details
To join the video meeting, click this link: https://meet.google.com/wpb-aocy-nph Otherwise, to join by phone, dial +44 20 3956 3319 and enter this PIN: 702 047 024# To view more phone numbers, click this link: https://tel.meet/wpb-aocy-nph?hs=5
Henry, Something else for you re Darwin., besides Gillian Beer. Corinna Wagner, "Genealogies of Monstrosity: Darwin, the Biology of Crime and Nineteenth-Century British Gothic Literature", in The Cambridge History of the Gothic Vol 2, pp. 416-44, eds. Dale Townshend and Angela Wright (Cambridge: CUP, 2020). Looks good.
I dare say that if you don't have Cambridge Core access, possible avenues might suggest themselves.
This chapter explores how Charles Darwin’s ideas about structural and functional anomalies in plants, animals and humans inspired the new Gothic monsters to be found in the work of Grant Allen, H. G. Wells, Robert Louis Stevenson, Bram Stoker and Arthur Machen. It traces the ways in which these writers reimagined human genealogies in light of evolutionary biology, materialism and Darwinist criminal anthropology. Sadistic criminals whose degenerate minds and bodies threatened civilised society, and atavistic flesh-eating plants whose natural ‘criminality’ was coaxed out by sadistic experimental scientists, are part of a significant reimagining of both biological and cultural history in the last half of the century. Indeed, through these types of biological monsters, Gothic writers challenged some of the most cherished ideas that Victorians held about their cultural heritage. Knowledge about human descent, the biology of human and animal abnormality, and criminal compulsions that dwelt in the ‘protoplasm’, largely negated the ideals of the age of chivalry – the medieval origins of the higher-order values that supposedly defined the human as exceptional.
The Worldly Philosophers (Heilbroner, 1953) has this to say in the chapter called The Dreams of the Utopian Socialists:
"Looking back on a century of enormous economic expansion that followed the last edition of the Principles [Mill's Principles of Political Economy], we can only smile when we realize that Mill believed England (and by extension, world capitalism) to be within a 'hand's breadth' of a stationary state...Perhaps because he is a Victorian, Mill is too easily dismissed, for his calm reasoned prose, restrained even in his heights of eloquence, does not speak in the tones that attract the modern ear. Yet, Mill has a way of returning--of finding his way to the back door after he has been ushered out the front."
"From this neglect both in theory and in practice of the cultivation of feeling, naturally resulted, among other things, an undervaluing of poetry and of Imagination generally, as an element of human nature."
The same pitfall as SBF, though Mill seems to have seen the error in his ways to some extent. I don't know how I'd survive prison without going crazy if I had SBF's philistinism.
Young CS Lewis had a similar attitude towards poetry, imagination, and myth. This lead Tolkien to write Mythopoeia, a poem in defense of myth and dedicated "To one who said that myths were lies and therefore worthless, even though 'breathed through silver'." (i.e. Lewis). This was a critical step in Lewis's return to Christianity and to his core themes of disenchantment/reenchantment with the world, though Lewis ultimately credits Poetic Diction by Owen Barfield with his conversion (a very odd choice, in my opinion - it failed to have the same effect on me).
I'm curious what the Mills' (père and fils) effect on EIC's India policy was. Obviously the colonial impulse comes off poorly now, but given that EIC was going to try to shape the country either way, does its policy look better with the Mills playing a role? Did they advocate for any specific policy that backfired? Is there any writing on this?
Mill senior wrote a history of India which got him his job and he was I think pretty colonial. JS wrote a defence to the Commons which didn’t prevent the EIC being closed down but was a stout defence. There’s scholarship but it’s not my area. Shall see what I can find
Mill's description of his early education reminded me of Ludo's childhood in Helen DeWitt's excellent The Last Samurai! Wonder if JSM's autobiography was an influence.
Henry, have you published follow-up to this over & above the Harriet Walter post? No worries if not, I just don’t want to miss anything & sometimes I can see the Book Club thing & sometimes I can’t. Sorry to raise this tedious subject again (links, not Mill/Walter).
And thanks. Looking forward to Darwin. I’m slowly working thro the Victorian novel & the death of Victorian certainties - incl as captured by George Eliot, of course - & I just think the Victorians (some of them, anyway) were practically the best thing ever. I have that photo of Isambard Kingdom Brunel on my desk. And the museums. Just wow.
Well, bother! I got caught up in something else and managed to forget about the meeting until just as y'all were ending. I'll look forward to the recap.
Interesting theory! I know Cave much better than Coleridge. Do you mean the modern Cave who's so characterized by grief at the death of his son (The Skeleton Tree and after) or the earlier, more misanthropic, angry, and rebelling against everything Cave? Or does Coleridge contain all of that?
Henry, Something else for you re Darwin., besides Gillian Beer. Corinna Wagner, "Genealogies of Monstrosity: Darwin, the Biology of Crime and Nineteenth-Century British Gothic Literature", in The Cambridge History of the Gothic Vol 2, pp. 416-44, eds. Dale Townshend and Angela Wright (Cambridge: CUP, 2020). Looks good.
I dare say that if you don't have Cambridge Core access, possible avenues might suggest themselves.
Summary:
This chapter explores how Charles Darwin’s ideas about structural and functional anomalies in plants, animals and humans inspired the new Gothic monsters to be found in the work of Grant Allen, H. G. Wells, Robert Louis Stevenson, Bram Stoker and Arthur Machen. It traces the ways in which these writers reimagined human genealogies in light of evolutionary biology, materialism and Darwinist criminal anthropology. Sadistic criminals whose degenerate minds and bodies threatened civilised society, and atavistic flesh-eating plants whose natural ‘criminality’ was coaxed out by sadistic experimental scientists, are part of a significant reimagining of both biological and cultural history in the last half of the century. Indeed, through these types of biological monsters, Gothic writers challenged some of the most cherished ideas that Victorians held about their cultural heritage. Knowledge about human descent, the biology of human and animal abnormality, and criminal compulsions that dwelt in the ‘protoplasm’, largely negated the ideals of the age of chivalry – the medieval origins of the higher-order values that supposedly defined the human as exceptional.
Oh cool thanks, I’ve heard he was very influential on children’s literature as well
The Worldly Philosophers (Heilbroner, 1953) has this to say in the chapter called The Dreams of the Utopian Socialists:
"Looking back on a century of enormous economic expansion that followed the last edition of the Principles [Mill's Principles of Political Economy], we can only smile when we realize that Mill believed England (and by extension, world capitalism) to be within a 'hand's breadth' of a stationary state...Perhaps because he is a Victorian, Mill is too easily dismissed, for his calm reasoned prose, restrained even in his heights of eloquence, does not speak in the tones that attract the modern ear. Yet, Mill has a way of returning--of finding his way to the back door after he has been ushered out the front."
Nice
"From this neglect both in theory and in practice of the cultivation of feeling, naturally resulted, among other things, an undervaluing of poetry and of Imagination generally, as an element of human nature."
The same pitfall as SBF, though Mill seems to have seen the error in his ways to some extent. I don't know how I'd survive prison without going crazy if I had SBF's philistinism.
Young CS Lewis had a similar attitude towards poetry, imagination, and myth. This lead Tolkien to write Mythopoeia, a poem in defense of myth and dedicated "To one who said that myths were lies and therefore worthless, even though 'breathed through silver'." (i.e. Lewis). This was a critical step in Lewis's return to Christianity and to his core themes of disenchantment/reenchantment with the world, though Lewis ultimately credits Poetic Diction by Owen Barfield with his conversion (a very odd choice, in my opinion - it failed to have the same effect on me).
Yes! SBF should have read Mill!
I'm curious what the Mills' (père and fils) effect on EIC's India policy was. Obviously the colonial impulse comes off poorly now, but given that EIC was going to try to shape the country either way, does its policy look better with the Mills playing a role? Did they advocate for any specific policy that backfired? Is there any writing on this?
Mill senior wrote a history of India which got him his job and he was I think pretty colonial. JS wrote a defence to the Commons which didn’t prevent the EIC being closed down but was a stout defence. There’s scholarship but it’s not my area. Shall see what I can find
Mill's description of his early education reminded me of Ludo's childhood in Helen DeWitt's excellent The Last Samurai! Wonder if JSM's autobiography was an influence.
It was indeed--she talks about it in the afterword of some editions. She’s very positive on his education.
Henry, have you published follow-up to this over & above the Harriet Walter post? No worries if not, I just don’t want to miss anything & sometimes I can see the Book Club thing & sometimes I can’t. Sorry to raise this tedious subject again (links, not Mill/Walter).
Planning to make a JSM video soon...
Sure. Whenever, not a nag.
didn't think you were!
And thanks. Looking forward to Darwin. I’m slowly working thro the Victorian novel & the death of Victorian certainties - incl as captured by George Eliot, of course - & I just think the Victorians (some of them, anyway) were practically the best thing ever. I have that photo of Isambard Kingdom Brunel on my desk. And the museums. Just wow.
Taylor, sorry.
Well, bother! I got caught up in something else and managed to forget about the meeting until just as y'all were ending. I'll look forward to the recap.
Interesting theory! I know Cave much better than Coleridge. Do you mean the modern Cave who's so characterized by grief at the death of his son (The Skeleton Tree and after) or the earlier, more misanthropic, angry, and rebelling against everything Cave? Or does Coleridge contain all of that?
From his Life of Sterling, which I wrote about here https://www.commonreader.co.uk/p/the-importance-of-failures
I don’t know Nick Cave, shall investigate