God I hate to be that guy, but here goes: the first four episodes-ish *were* distinctly and indeed famously... just OK. Lord knows it doesn't later become Lear or anything like that, but once Logan's back to health and narrative centrality, the show takes off. Not to latter-day Shakespearean levels, certainly - but convincingly tragic all the same.
Agreed. It’s not King Lear. But…you are doing yourself (and the show) a serious injustice to stop after 5 episodes. One of the astounding things about the show is the pivot that takes place after episode 4 of the first season - it becomes almost a different show, albeit with the same characters and concept. Well worth sticking with it at least to the end of season one. If you still don’t like it…blame me!
Do you think there is a link between what I think you’ve been calling the ‘philistine supremacy’ and Robin Hanson’s concept of ‘cultural drift’? The line ‘trivialising ourselves to death’ made me think of both
Something like that, but, as my comment on his modernism article suggests, I don't know how much we can infer from the state of art about the state of culture as it were
It was never Lear! They did, however, borrow a bunch of lines from Shakespeare over the seasons. But I’m with you that so much TV that’s said to be well written is dull and predictable and formulaic; the fact that people think it’s so incredible is a testament to how little they’re reading anymore. TV is TV! It’s not about and was never about writing in the way that literature is about writing. And yet I liked Succession as a really the only TV show I could stand to watch. I watched much of the last season with a group of friends, cheering and jeering like it was a football game or something. It was fun. It was spectacle. It’s worth noting also that though it was a critical success, it was not especially popular for the common viewer. (Nielsen numbers never matched the critical hype.)
Ya, remember Lost? Sopranos? Deadwood? Those were the 'cheering and jeering' type of tv. They were great! Maybe the critics did compare them to Shakespeare (I don't remember), but we don't have to listen to the critics. Part of what I'm gleaning from this is that we as readers should be very weary of hype of this kind especially where it concerns tv or long form streaming.
If TV is serialized, non-resolution mongering, then a never ending Hamlet written by Shakespeare himself would not have been very good either. But, still I tend to talk myself out of the 'we are entertaining ourselves to death' argument. As you point out, Henry, our problems are in some ways minor compared with Shakespeare's. A mediocre Succession is a sign of something like success even if it is 'drifting' and full of a philistine ethos.
Even if you adjust for the streaming model’s inclusion of and dragging out superfluous details, it remains a soap opera. It is what it is, but don’t call it serious or Shakespeare. Streaming is like a flea market - it’s looking for a needle in a haystack. That can be applied across the board. Broadway is dead. Serious films are now almost entirely from independents. It’s not just the average viewer, but also the Academy when the movie “Everything, Everywhere All at Once” won the Oscar over the brilliant and complex “The Banshees of Inisherin.” Most people are unable to draw out basic themes in that movie. All I heard was “poor Jenny.”
God I hate to be that guy, but here goes: the first four episodes-ish *were* distinctly and indeed famously... just OK. Lord knows it doesn't later become Lear or anything like that, but once Logan's back to health and narrative centrality, the show takes off. Not to latter-day Shakespearean levels, certainly - but convincingly tragic all the same.
Agreed. It’s not King Lear. But…you are doing yourself (and the show) a serious injustice to stop after 5 episodes. One of the astounding things about the show is the pivot that takes place after episode 4 of the first season - it becomes almost a different show, albeit with the same characters and concept. Well worth sticking with it at least to the end of season one. If you still don’t like it…blame me!
Maybe I will try one more... but they have had a 4 hour chance!!
do it!
dont do it!
Do you think there is a link between what I think you’ve been calling the ‘philistine supremacy’ and Robin Hanson’s concept of ‘cultural drift’? The line ‘trivialising ourselves to death’ made me think of both
yes I think so, though how much actualy overlap of the ideas there is I am not sure.... but I am enjoying his work on that topic A LOT
Perhaps the former is a symptom of the latter
Something like that, but, as my comment on his modernism article suggests, I don't know how much we can infer from the state of art about the state of culture as it were
Ugh. Thank you. I thought Succession was the most overrated nonsense I’ve ever seen 🫣😂
It was never Lear! They did, however, borrow a bunch of lines from Shakespeare over the seasons. But I’m with you that so much TV that’s said to be well written is dull and predictable and formulaic; the fact that people think it’s so incredible is a testament to how little they’re reading anymore. TV is TV! It’s not about and was never about writing in the way that literature is about writing. And yet I liked Succession as a really the only TV show I could stand to watch. I watched much of the last season with a group of friends, cheering and jeering like it was a football game or something. It was fun. It was spectacle. It’s worth noting also that though it was a critical success, it was not especially popular for the common viewer. (Nielsen numbers never matched the critical hype.)
Ah I hadn’t realised that about the numbers… interesting. I like the sort of tv that has murders and Larry David. Let TV be TV!
Ya, remember Lost? Sopranos? Deadwood? Those were the 'cheering and jeering' type of tv. They were great! Maybe the critics did compare them to Shakespeare (I don't remember), but we don't have to listen to the critics. Part of what I'm gleaning from this is that we as readers should be very weary of hype of this kind especially where it concerns tv or long form streaming.
If TV is serialized, non-resolution mongering, then a never ending Hamlet written by Shakespeare himself would not have been very good either. But, still I tend to talk myself out of the 'we are entertaining ourselves to death' argument. As you point out, Henry, our problems are in some ways minor compared with Shakespeare's. A mediocre Succession is a sign of something like success even if it is 'drifting' and full of a philistine ethos.
my problem is not with the existence of TV but with the fact that elites treat it so seriously at the expense of actually being serious
Even if you adjust for the streaming model’s inclusion of and dragging out superfluous details, it remains a soap opera. It is what it is, but don’t call it serious or Shakespeare. Streaming is like a flea market - it’s looking for a needle in a haystack. That can be applied across the board. Broadway is dead. Serious films are now almost entirely from independents. It’s not just the average viewer, but also the Academy when the movie “Everything, Everywhere All at Once” won the Oscar over the brilliant and complex “The Banshees of Inisherin.” Most people are unable to draw out basic themes in that movie. All I heard was “poor Jenny.”
after the first season it became seriously great viewing for me, but you absolutely have no obligation to give a show that long.
one important thing that goes unnoticed is how funny it becomes - a dramatic comedy imo